Michael Leunig Interview

Photo: Sam Cooper.

–– INTERVIEW ––

Michael Leunig has been drawing and writing for Australian newspapers since 1965. He was born in Melbourne and now lives on a farm in northeastern Victoria. His work has been widely published overseas, and has been adapted in Australia for television, theatre and radio.

His many titles include The Penguin Leunig, The Travelling Leunig, Ramming the Shears, Everyday Devils and Angels, You and Me, Short Notes from the Long History of Happiness, Why Dogs Sniff Each Other’s Tails, Goatperson and Other Tales, The Curly Pyjama Letters, The Stick, Poems, Strange Creature and The Lot.

PODCASTS: www.thelastpostmagazine.com/tlp-interviews

Get Well is a collection of Michael Leunig’s work over the past four years – a time when, quite remarkably, all has not been well with the world.

‘Simple rhymes, homemade aphorisms, sentimental yearnings, many daggy jokes, funny faces and mysteries from the heart abound in this collection of cartoons – which cause me to wonder what is becoming of me and my world.’ – Michael Leunig

Deceptively wise, heartbreakingly beautiful and just plain hilarious, Get Well is a robust selection from Michael Leunig’s work over the past four years – a time when, quite remarkably, all has not been well with the world.

More than ever Leunig shines a light on questions about sanity and madness, innocence and corruption, friendliness and unfriendliness, joy and despair, and the possibility of an overriding eternal wisdom and beauty.

Get Well is the book we all need right now – just the tonic for these strange times.

GET WELL

BY MICHAEL LEUNIG, PENGUIN RANDOM HOUSE

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Greg T Ross: Michael Leunig, welcome. Our second interview.

Michael Leunig: Indeed, Greg. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. It’s always nice to feel welcome.

GTR: Yeah. We last spoke in 2017 and so much happened since then.

ML: Yeah, it seems to have... I’m not sure I can hold it all in my head what’s happened. I tend to be at that age where every day seems to be an entirely new event. So, I must say my memory about, of the whole last few years is not real clear. Yeah. And we all go through our own personal things. There’s these public things that are shared on the national scale, but then it’s our own personal lives and it’s quite a blend.

GTR: Yes, that’s true too. And of course, when we look at the forceful nature of these such, these events, Michael, they can’t help but intrude on one’s wellbeing.

ML: Yes, indeed. And in ways we can’t quite calculate or be sure of. I mean, there’s the immediate impact and the feelings but then there’s the deeper things that take time to unfold, which we still don’t know of fully. It takes time to understand what’s happened to us or to ourselves. Yeah.

GTR: That’s true too. And of course we have the immediate, we deal with things immediately. We have to because we have to get on with our daily lives. But as you said, there is an unfolding of circumstance and reaction, which will take time. And we really don’t know how that’s going to pan out at the moment.

ML: We don’t. There’s a kind of a chemistry in it isn’t there? There’s a mysterious element where nobody truly knows. Nobody, the highest to the lowest in the land, if there is such a difference. No one can know. And there’s just not knowing of where we are heading. In some quarters there’s great dismay about the way things have gone and what we’ve seen in political life. We’re seeing parts of our culture that we didn’t know existed really, or reactions from people to the what’s been going on. And it’s a bit of dismay. I think it’s probably just traditional, isn’t it? This like... Life is always a bit of snafu. Who fully control... It’s not in control is what we would like to think. It’s got its own momentum in its own way. It’s nature at work in a sense too.

GTR: Yes, well said, Michael. And I suppose with the advent of social media, and of course the daily news on the firstly, the bush fires, and then of course the virus. We probably, with the bush fires, we saw examples of humanity that reminded us that we can be very good to each other. And of course, with the virus, perhaps the opposite.

ML: Yes. I would agree with that, Greg. I think the fires are such a national emergency and we... All our compassion comes forth and the dread of the thing. It’s deep in the Australian psyche, I guess. And this, the fire, I know I live with it every summer. I’m currently getting ready for the fire season. I’ve spent about 15 years as a volunteer firefighting on this country fire authority in Victoria.

GTR: Oh, excellent.

ML: Yeah. And I’ve attended fires and done that and I’ve learned what radiant heat is and I’ve learned what smoking inhalation is. And I’ve also learned how people react to fire. I often... There’s a principle in fire, which is fires always behave in unexpected ways. But I think it’s also, I have discovered that human beings also behave in unexpected ways in the midst of fire and it’s sometimes quite alarming. So it’s a very big sad thing and that’s in our culture and in our psyche about the fire. But the virus is not so much in our culture, is it. And so, strange responses. Some people act one way, others in another way. When people are fearful, they sometimes get angry. I’ve seen firefighters get very angry with their comrades. In irrational ways when it gets really dire, then you see great stoicism and courage and just plotting sort of duty, which gets the job done etc. You could put out little ones and stop them getting... becoming big ones. But once a big one’s going, it’s we’re in the hands of God, if I could put it that way. And so how do we behave really? Oh boy.

GTR: Yeah.

ML: And yeah so but this virus is a new thing and there’s so many different reactions. So there’s a lot of sad qualities come out in humanity and wonderful qualities. I don’t know.

GTR: Well, actually they had... I know that there had been some people that were saying that you were some things you were not because you put up a particular viewpoint, which was exactly what Michael?

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PEOPLE WHO ASSUME THEY KNOW WHO I AM AND DESCRIBING ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA. AND I THINK HEAVENS, I’D LOVE TO SIT DOWN AND TALK TO THESE PEOPLE. THEN THEY MIGHT KNOW ME AND UNDERSTAND WHAT I’M SAYING. AND I’M NOT CLAIMING TO BE AN AUTHORITY, I’M JUST DOING THE OLD JOB OF A GOOD POLITICAL CARTOONIST.

ML: Well look, what I was doing, Greg, was honouring my profession. The duty of my profession is to question. Just to question what comes from on high, the pronouncements, the political dictates and there’s much involved in this. There’s police policies, there are political policies, and there’s a lot to be looked at. Now, I didn’t have a crazy radical view, but because of social media these days, people are appalling that this thing of people trolls, you know, just denouncing you and obliterating, insulting, lying about you, projecting so much onto you. People who assume they know who I am and describing me on social media. And I think heavens, I’d love to sit down and talk to these people. Then they might know me and understand what I’m saying. And I’m not claiming to be an authority, I’m just doing the old job of a good political cartoonist. It’s like the kid who says the Emperor’s got no clothes. There’s a bit of that and that’s always relevant. I think it’s always important and it’s a traditional function of a good cartoonist, but a lot of people don’t like that. They think you should just fall in line. And they seem to imagine that you are somehow being malicious or sabotaging the national board. And I think no, we should value that voice which intelligently asks a question of authority, of political authority and also calls into question our own behavior. I’m questioning human nature at a time like this too. This is philosophy, this is what the philosophers always did.

GTR: Yes.

ML: But people react as if you are making an act of parliament. Or a legal document. It’s not. It’s simply a drawing and it’s just raising little ideas and thoughts and you hope you’re trying to do it responsibly. I’m not here to overturn society. I’m here to keep it as healthy as I can. I mean, a democracy can... It needs to be healthy. And what is the definition of a healthy democracy? I don’t think it’s we’re all marching to the same tune. We have diversity and we... And we’re learning to bear with each other in our differences. It’s a really important part of a healthy democracy to not get so threatened if someone doesn’t agree with us. But it all requires a certain dignity and courtesy and you’re not trying to be hurt anyone. That’s a love. I mean, I’m an old Aussie, I’m 76 years old. I care about my culture and my country and my society. I care, but doesn’t mean say I’m just going to say all nice, simple kind of digestible things. Sometimes you’ve got to raise a question.

GTR: Yeah. That’s true too. And it speaks volumes for your work that can raise such indignation. Do you fear for the future of society when this happens?

ML: Well, I have a great concern. It’s hard to keep your chin up. Sometimes when you see, you read the media. See the media is a bit of the problem, it’s not the full picture. The media does not give the full picture. When I say media, I mean just what they call the mainstream media I guess, the dominant things and journalism has changed considerably.

GTR: Indeed.

ML: And I think it’s a narrow view. Out there in, as Malcolm Fraser used to say, in the factories and the farms, they’re a broad... There’s a different kind of culture of and concern. And I mean, I live pretty much in the bush these days. And that’s a different culture. There’s a more, I don’t know, it’s more open in a way. Traditionally country people were regarded as narrow. I find that it’s... There’s a new urban narrowness that sort of...

GTR: Yeah, that’s interesting you say that. I mean, I live in regional, in the south coast of New South Wales, far from this, so I understand what you’re saying. But your job hasn’t changed and your position really hasn’t changed. Now, were you writing...were you doing work for the Nation Review back in...?

ML: I was. That was in... Well, I started in about 1970 I think.

GTR: Yeah, that’s right. And back then the right wingers were getting into you and now they want to get in bed with you.

ML: Exactly. Yeah. And therefore I’m described... Was it alt right?

GTR: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

ML: Or all the words. So people are always trying to categorise each other, I guess. And it’s a sort of a very... Oh yes, it is prejudice and yeah, it hurts to be misunderstood. We all...

GTR: Very true.

ML: We want to be understood for who we are. I think it’s a fundamental human need. But are when you are getting insulted deliberately to hurt too, to hurt. I think there’s a lot more people wanting to oh, punchy. There’s a sort of a punishing thing out there floating around in media and really harsh criticism.

GTR: Well, didn’t they come on... Didn’t they get stuck into Burt Newton too I think?

ML: Yeah.

GTR: Yeah. And that was, I mean to me, but I thought that was quite over the top too.

ML: Yeah. Well, it’s happened. It’s a kind of public entertainment. It’s like the Coliseum. You’re going to see some Christians thrown to the lions or something. There’s a part of the public loves a bit of... It’s a bit morbid you want to see someone hurt. And I mean I don’t like dwelling on that because fundamentally there’s a... I don’t know. I see it’s decency in people and it’s unheralded. These are never Australians of the year are they? Just these ordinary people who have...

GTR: No, that’s right. That’s right. I’ve never been big on awards myself and actually that, and funny enough, Michael, because I just turned to your new book Get Well, which is absolutely brilliant. And I’ve come across your cartoon when you’ve got Joe Blow goes up and there’s a guy standing there, award winning Australian. And then Joe Blow goes up, award-winning journalist. And then he sees an awardwinning artist, award-winning wine, and an award-winning vacuum cleaner.

ML: That’s right.GTR: And then...ML: That’s possible. Yeah.

GTR: And then he sees, and he’s got such a smile, just a simple duck is there.

ML: Yeah. The duck, that’s just a recurrence in my work of, I don’t know, nature and simplicity and who the... I don’t know, many people to dislike ducks. They’re sort of, it’s a childlike thing, isn’t it? So it comes back to a simplicity. Yeah no, everything’s award winning now and I’m not very impressed. That’s not the mark of a man or a woman. I’ve seen too many dubious awards handed out.

GTR: Yes, that’s my view on the subject.

ML: And so awards are handed out by committees and committees usually get everything wrong.

GTR: Yeah. I’m not big on awards either but are goats and ducks perhaps your favorite animals?

ML: Oh, I probably don’t have too many favorite animals. I mean, they’re

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all pretty interesting and they’re... Some of them are shocking. We’ve got a lot of feral deer moving into the bush around us and oh boy, did they do some damage. And then the good old Sulphur-crested cockatoo. My God. Well, what a vandal is that bird? It won’t let you have any of your fruit off your trees. So look, it’s just nature’s plan, isn’t it?

GTR: Yep.

ML: And we are at the mercy of nature in so many ways so you’ve got to accept that eventually, do your best and sort of know when to accept that things haven’t worked out as we hoped, with the fruit tree or something.

GTR: Yeah. That’s right. There’s always little disappointments and little rewards too. And the cockatoo’s actually, it’s funny you use the word vandal because I think they are described as the vandal of the skies. There’s some around here and they get in a pack and they just talk, talk so loudly.

ML: Yeah. Their voices shocking. The squawking. Yeah.

GTR: Someone needs to tell them.

ML: Yeah. I think they’re beyond that and we’ve taken to calling them... They’re called cockatoo’s. I call them hoonatoo’s now because they’re hoons. And they are just so wild, molly,

and I think it’s part of the Australian character too perhaps as well.

GTR: Yeah. It reflects the country very well. And I suppose narcissism seems to have come into...I mean, that’s been a bit of a problem with the selfies and the social media. Everyone wants to have a say, everyone wants to be seen. It appears so at least, Michael. So what is the antidote to that?

ML: Oh, heavens. I don’t know. Nothing you can all... I think nature sorts you out eventually. Life itself sorts you out. Is it a young people thing predominantly? I think young people are very insecure about their, as we all were more so when we were younger maybe. They wanted to be acceptable or more or less, some did more than others. We wanted to be liked or valued. And so but when some people go over the top trying to present as worthy and good and attractive, and then they start telling fibs about themselves presenting only their best side and it’s not that best. It’s a bit glossy and it’s becomes fake. And I don’t think you’d feel good if you were full-time narcissist. You’d feel a bit of guilt every now and then wouldn’t you?

GTR: So didn’t you say in one cartoon where the female’s looking at her taking selfies, and then she’s talking to the phone and asking if she’s like selfish. And the phone says, “How can you possibly be selfish when you

share your photo on social media for the whole wide world to see?”

ML: Yes, of course. Yeah. Well, there’s my... Well, there’s the cartoonist asking questions about not just what the politicians, not just what the politicians do, but what us ordinary punters do. I’m, I’m very, always curious about what is our part in all this debacle because sometimes it is a debacle. Some days it’s not working well and you can turn to the politicians as we must and say, “Hang on, you’re not doing a good job here.” But then you got to look at yourself in the mirror or society does so that’s probably what a cartoonist too. It just holds up the mirror. Of the culture to the system as best a cartoonist can. I mean, they’re not experts. I’m not an expert, but you try and give it a go and people don’t like that of course. A lot of people don’t like.

GTR: Why don’t, I mean, you’d think you’d... Any, I don’t know, but I do know that it’s uncomfortable for some people.

ML: Well, of course, because look, it’s almost biblical, isn’t it? There’s this kind of what does this, there’s this kind of... is it biblical? No, it’s religious almost this thing of seven deadly sins. They say pride, greed, laziness, all these things, right? Which are part of human nature. Now, they do account, I don’t go around banging on about the seven deadly sins, but I think, hey,

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this is just lazy. Just old fashioned laziness or something you say about, and you know that you yourself have a capacity to laziness or humans are greedy more or less. And you’ve got to keep saying that we like to describe ourselves as wonderful glorious people a bit, or the culture does. It’s always award winning and all this stuff. A humble position is also good. So, no, we are also we are fallible. We also do sin. Envy is a big part even of professional life. I find people imagine you’re doing very well or, “Oh, you’re in the public realm. You’re are having say, so therefore you’re doing well and you’re wealthy” or something. Whatever their fantasy is. I’m not going to go at myself as a wealthy and for God’s sake, I’ve just been through a divorce. A marital financial settlement. I mean, I’ve got to keep working. But so people... And anyway, they fantasise that because you’re doing cartoons in the public realm and you do books.

GTR: It’s incredible.

ML: That you’re up yourself. You’re a narcissist, you think you’re pretty good. I said, “No, I don’t. I’m struggling.” And if they think you’re doing well, they can get envious. People can, other people in the media envy you, and they won’t know or admit to envy much but I think it accounts for a lot of hurtfulness that goes on and trying to bring people down.

GTR: That’s true too. And then of course, if you think about this too Michael, you obviously, to me, I shouldn’t say obviously, I suppose nothing’s obvious. But to me, these people that do that, then you say because you’re an artist, you must be up yourself and rich and everything. These people, don’t they have any forms of self expression except envy? Because I think self expression is so important for the soul.

ML: Indeed, it is vital and it’s natural and to be expressive and... But to be antagonistic and malicious without due cause. I mean, we’re all... Sometimes if someone’s giving us a hell of a hard time, we can be antagonistic back and say, “Don’t...just leave me alone, buzz off.” But for no reason when you’re just doing your job. And people are trying to tear you to shreds. And also as Sydney Nolan I think it was said, the artist Sydney Nolan, said “Australia is not a good country for an artist to grow old in.” So it was we are young and free. Now yes, that’s lovely who doesn’t love the spontaneity and the beauty of youth and the energy. Fantastic. But I think sometimes when they say as an insult, “You’re just an old guy, you’re an old”, you are old as if that’s some kind of failure or sin. I say, “Well, yeah, well, welcome to the club. We’ll all be... We all have to go through it if we’re lucky.”

GTR: Yeah. That’s right. It beats the alternative.

ML: Yeah, exactly. And from the themes in The Last Post, they shall not grow old as we who are left grow old, it said that’s sad when people...

GTR: Oh yeah, that’s true too. Yeah. And you can have friends and friends will say... Oh, you hear them talking to someone on the phone. They might say, “Oh, I’m just an old bastard” and I think, “Well, I would never say that about myself because it’s not true.” I don’t think we live long enough to be old.

ML: No, no. We know what it is to feel a bit like an afternoon nap because I’m going through a bit of what my mother used to call spring fever at the moment. I’ve been up there really doing a bit of hard yakka.

GTR: Right.

ML: And oh, geez, I’m down in Melbourne today. I don’t get to Melbourne much anymore and oh, you think, “Oh, I don’t have the energy I used to have on these hot sort of days.”

GTR: My older brother is in his late seventies and he sent a message to me yesterday saying the same thing, but he’s very youthful of mind too. And that’s the thing, but I suppose, is love still the strongest emotion do you think?

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ML: I hope it’s a very... Yes. I hope so. I hope so. I think for me, it just develops and develops and it broadens and it deepens. It’s something that goes on until your day you die. I think in the end, it’s all that remains and I think. And it’s so... It broadens one’s understanding of what love is is it grows with age. I think it’s a lifetimes work.

GTR: Beautifully said.

ML: It’s a lifetime’s work and it’s like a miracle and it’s the thing that is most valuable amongst humans and the most... It’s the most regenerative and it’s the great healer and it’s worth... If you were the most award winning wealthy person and there was no real love in and around your days, I think that would be a great tragedy. And so yeah I think it’s powerful...

GTR: Yeah. You never think of yourself as old when you love, I don’t think.

ML: No, you don’t. No, it’s a state of... There’s some freed...genuine freedom of soul and mind and aliveness. There’s some real, this vitality of love and the meaningfulness of it and it makes so much worthwhile. To work with love, to love whatever, to cook with love. It applies to anything we do.

GTR: Gardening.

ML: Gardening and it gives contentment and it bestows contentment. And I think in this agitated, discontented, anxious world, which the modern world is, it’s moving probably too fast for its own good. And I think love is a deeper, slower thing and...

GTR: Yeah, beautiful. That’s right. It is. And it will be worthwhile in its slow form.

ML: Yes. I think so. It grows in, as I said once before in a little cartoon or something, nothing can be loved at speed. Nothing can be loved at speed. Well, that was just me having a shot at it, has having a try to understand something. But I think to slow down is it... Love can flourish a bit and take and grow in a slower life.

GTR: Yeah, it’s quite amazing because of course food, food tastes better, music sounds better.

ML: Yeah.

GTR: And the birds seem to be singing better songs when you have love.

ML: Indeed. You hear, and you see, and you feel more acutely and sensitively and more truly, I think. Now this might sound waffle to some but, and there is such thing as love envy. They see someone who lives with love and they don’t... It’s a bit menacing to some people. And it’s so restricted, you can’t love... All right. Say love between a man and a woman. You can’t love that woman. You’ve got an age gap, relationship, blah, blah. But what’s that got to do with it? It’s love. It can be

anywhere in the most unlikely place. It can flourish. It can take... it can grow.

GTR: Well. That’s right. James Baldwin said, the American poet James Baldwin said, you have no... you cannot choose who you love.

ML: Yes. Did he say that? Yes. Well, that would be true. And it’s very, it’s not that it’s a wild force that takes hold of you, although some would describe it as just that. But the point is made it, you do not choose it. It’s a bit of a miracle I think.

ML: And it’s the salvation of many, it’s such a redeeming thing. People will give up so much in order to love.

GTR: Yes.

ML: They will change so much that for the sake of love because they know that’s the greatest value. And the old traditional, our grandmothers might have said it, “God is love” et cetera and understandings of what love is because nobody’s got the exact definition. But to even talk to each other with love it can be just a deep, respectful wanting to touch each other’s heart if you know what I mean? And bringing each other to life a bit. Just to the truth of life, to awaken that within each other even in conversation. Or that’s what a musician might do or as Mozart said, he said, “All right, what is genius?” He specifically, in German of course and it translated roughly was what is genius? Because it’s often he obviously was asked about it. He said genius is love, love, and love.

GTR: Is that what Mozart said? Is that what Mozart said? How brilliant.

ML: If you looked up Mozart on the subject of genius or love, you’d probably find some words to that effect. Yeah. And I think every artist who’s very genuine, who’s genuine, who’s not a narcissistic ego self-promoting sort, who’s not calling themselves an artist. I think any genuine artist knows about this, that you have to work. If you’re a painter, composer, you’re a writer, you have to write with love. If you put out a magazine, you do it with love. That’s not corny because the old ...The more negative aspects of Australian masculinity, and it’s not a bad thing, but a lot of guys are embarrassed about to use that word. Or they have been, I think things might be changing. I don’t know. So if you talk of love, you’re going to be shot down if you’re a cartoonist. If you do a cartoon about love, there’s a sort of a sneering eye.

GTR: I know.

ML: Yeah. And you think, “Oh, come on, be bigger than that.” Have a bit of guts, have some courage. You have to, it requires courage to love.

GTR: Yeah. So this is true. This is very true too, of course, because we know that love will bring pain at some stage. There will be pain, but still we love and still we go in appropriately

openhearted to others. Not as though we are chasing love, but if we go in and give ourselves to someone you know is giving themselves back, then this when things happen.

ML: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Something you set in motion and something grows and then all the words of, that go back in our ancestry, all the poets of the past and the people who gave expression to these ideas, whether it’s Rumi in any culture, Rumi in the... They all were fascinated and they got very eloquent on the subject. Love has been elusive to humans, but it’s also been profoundly influential, an act of love. And then with that goes mercy or things or humility and all these things, but mercy forgiveness, etc, all these things that we were important in our culture and not easy sometimes. Sometimes not easy. So, love is there, isn’t it? In all of these qualities.

GTR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It’s a great thing that you speak about, Michael. And I think with Rumi and others, when love is involved, great works of art have the potential to be born because there seems to be an openness from the artist or the person that love is directing them in some way. I don’t know. I hope that doesn’t sound too corny, but then again...

ML: No, no. No I think it’s very accurate. And I think you use this word openness, and I think that’s vital quality to dare to be open. I mean, you don’t to be open and to be genuine, I suppose. And also to be... Some warmth between humans is a wonderful thing. The warmth, sometimes blokes aren’t as good at it but they do have it deep in their heart.

GTR: Yep.

ML: They do. You’ve just got to find it in them or allow for it. And I find men are often been misrepresented in recent times as they all... They’ve got problems and all this. Well, of course who doesn’t have? We all have sort of problems sometime or other more or less.

GTR: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah.

ML: But men are actually much softer than...

GTR: Well, the great poets and painters, Michael, and this is not being sexist or selective, but the facts are that some of the greatest artists and poets are men. So there obviously has to be a kernel in there that has gives birth to this.

ML: Exactly, exactly. And I think they, a lot of men yearn for it and that’s what it is sometimes in times of war and conflict, men have to go through and see and take part in chaotic, sad, appalling things. And yet, I mean, have you read Alan Moorehead’s book called Eclipse?

GTR: No.

ML: Moorehead, an Australian journalist, he followed the allies

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advance up through Italy. He’s a war correspondent. He went up through Italy. I think the Americans and the British and New Zealand, isn’t it? All right up to Germany and he saw some really sad and horrible and the futility and the destruction. And he did sort of conclude at the end of that book that at least in spite of all the sadness, at least he saw men discover, men behave in loving and courageous ways who would otherwise have just been sort of shopkeepers in an obscure little town in England or something. And they found a certain huge qualities in themselves that they otherwise would not have discovered. I mean, I know some men didn’t, some men were too mortally damaged and etc, but yeah, Moorehead’s book is interesting about...

GTR: I might have a look at that. Eclipse.

ML: Eclipse. Yes. It’s a very gripping thing. He was a great... He wrote a book called Cooper’s Creek too about Burke and Wills. And he quite a writer, but that was a good book, Eclipse by Moorehead. And because it was very accurate reporting on the conflict.

GTR: Well, thank you for that. Thanks for giving us that heads up, Michael. And I think just in today’s society where things obviously, and I know the last time we spoke I think we may have mentioned this, but that’s four years ago. And the four years that have gone now, things have only increased in speed I would imagine. So there is a lot of challenges. How does one, is patience something that will lead to quietness? Patience and...

ML: Yeah, well, some sort of way to cope with it all. Yeah. I think patience is a fantastic virtue. It’s a really effective discipline I suppose. And because to be patient is to diminish anxiety.

GTR: Yes.

ML: I think people driven by anxiety will just rush to things and not bear with things and say, “Okay, just stay with it, let it pass or just watch it.” What the old saying, just watch and wait and wonder. And don’t feel we

have to act necessarily straight away, calm down. To calm. I think we are very agitated at this time in history. We’re so hyper stimulated with the media, with television, with film, with entertainment and it’s not very reflective. It bothers me that so much films are being dumped into the world and a lot of them aren’t real good.

GTR: Actually. Good point, Michael, you wonder who produced that? Who put the money into that? Who thought that was a good idea?

ML: Yeah. I think they just got to keep just like keeping the presses rolling. It doesn’t matter what we print, just print something because people will buy it. And content isn’t something that’s profound and isn’t so important. I think it’s got to be worth doing in my view, but that’s an old fashioned view. We’re consumer, we consume and we expect to consume, and we expect to have a lot of stuff and a bigger house than our ancestors had. A bigger pool or whatever people have. I don’t know. I think people are just...the materialism is very promoted and yet we look to our and our indigenous people. And we sort of talk admiringly in an idealised way about how there was a more simple life. In fact, it was very hardworking to keep the... To find food, but got a more spiritual life I guess.

GTR: Yes, that’s true too. I think we were speaking before just briefly about... We were speaking about the media. One of your cartoons that I really like, and I really I think I’ve probably mentioned this, I really like the ability you have to get expressions on those faces. And one of them is a bastard, one’s a good bloke, and there’s this bearded Messiah standing on the hill and he says to the four guys there, “Put down your stones and let those who, without sin among you, become radio broadcasters, newspaper columnists, or television commentators.”

ML: Well, that’s right. I’ve worked with journalists all my life. Well, I worked in the meat works before I worked, became in the company of journalists you see. It was in interesting.

GTR: Right.

ML: I was a labourer in the... I was killing cattle in a meat works. And when, I was a kid who sort of didn’t do well with education and I could earn some good money as a laborer and a meat works, and I didn’t choose to kill cattle. Well, I was just a laborer who was sent to do that on some days and then just everything I did. So then suddenly I’m with journalists, because in the background I was always drawing little cartoons when I’d go home at night. I wanted to do this sort of thing. And it was the Sixties, there was things in the air, that things were changing. It was interesting. And it was a Renaissance, it was a creative time. It was a politically stirring time. There was the Vietnam conflict caused a lot of thinking and questioning and sadness...

GTR: It was so stimulating, Michael.

ML: Oh, it was, it was. And it was more... It was tolerant in a way. You could put ideas out there and it’d cause a bit of an uproar but it wasn’t so dire and so punishing if you... You didn’t get cancelled or censored as much. I mean, I did get censored a few times. And quite rightly. I stepped across the boundary of public decency a few times in the cartoons and we went to court and all that. We sort of all laughed it off and took it seriously and then laughed it off. But now it’s yeah, journalism’s changed is what I’m saying. Suddenly I found one minute I’m amongst slaughter men and meat workers. And these weren’t bad blokes by and large. There was things to and they all got their virtues. And there’s so much life and death going on in the meat works. There’s life and death, and as I’ve said, if it hardens some, it makes other more sensitive because it’s...

ML: Then the pack. But back then there was some very substantial people with journalism I remember. People who’d really... they’d been more correspondence. They’d worked all over the world. It’s back in the days when newspapers had money to send them out on really big assignments. And it was really, there was some terrific characters, really good writers

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too. I don’t think they get the time and the money to write now and I think they’re all too educated in a way. Back then there were a lot of journalists who’d just come in as cadets at 16.

GTR: That’s right. Well, I was 15 when I became a copy boy at the Sydney Morning Herald and the plan was to turn me into a cadet journalist. But I got homesick went back to Adelaide, but that’s another the story. So do you think in the end, Michael, when we have so many opinions aired and some of them not all worthy, do you think sometimes it might just be better to interview an autumn leaf?

ML: Well, yeah. An autumn leaf is a very (laughter) sensitive. An autumn leaf has had quite a long, hard summer and has heard many, much bird song. And lot of it’s looked down upon the world. It’s..yeah, sometimes you might as well, yes.

GTR: That interview you did with the autumn leaf was good because it said, “I suppose you’re right actually, autumn leaf. Thanks for your time.” Autumn leaf says, “No worries. Thanks for the interview.”

ML: Exactly. Yeah. I must say I do struggle with the daily purpose now. I don’t find much that’s very interesting or relevant. I don’t know. It’s all a bit too... There’s, there’s certain issues...

GTR: It’s boring.

ML: Oh, that is the word, Greg, you put your finger on it. Just boring. And the other word would be stupid sometimes, I don’t want to... This is, I can’t believe how shallow it’s got and I don’t think anybody likes it very much. I’m surprised people still reading the purpose. Yeah. But so I don’t find much diversity of people and views. And I think, I don’t know, maybe they all went to university and grew, went to good schools or something. I reckon I went to a state school, pretty working class.

GTR: Same here. Yes.

ML: Yeah and I don’t find enough of those, that sort of sensibility in journalism even. I don’t know.

GTR: No, no, you’re right. II think there’s a lot of working class writers that have really been brave in the view eyes of some you really get well... I don’t know, but I think I understand completely what you mean. I do get the weekend paper just for a read because it has more diverse things in it. But the Monday to Friday, you can just forget about that. That’s pity they can’t...good for the fish and chips. But I suppose we all have to live, learn to live together, Michael.

ML: Yes. I guess we do. And we got to learn to bear with each other and kind of all these... I am sounding like an old fogey, so we got to, you hope that people just can respect each other’s dignity and they need... Respect people. Just you don’t have to, just

allow for them and allow for their ways, their peculiarities. We are all peculiar, so long as no one’s really hurting each other. And I think the modern conformity is not so good. I think we are so bombarded with imagery of how you might be and how you should be young people, I don’t know how they escape. Pretty powerful pressures of public relations and advertising and...

GTR: Very good point too. There needs to be. And actually, I suppose finally, Michael, it’s always an utmost pleasure to speak to you and I always feel we can go on for hours. But I’m thinking finally, Michael, is appreciating the small part of a blessing in life?

ML: The small things in life of course, I would say so. I would say the every day thing can be so beautiful and this simple thing and it’s not so easy. Simple isn’t necessarily easy because everything is expected to be peak. Well, not everything. This is tendency to look for peak experience, the most amazing and you think, “Oh, I’m sick of amazing things. I just want real things and people and each other.”

GTR: How wise.

ML: Yeah. I mean, we’ve got this kind of addiction to these amazing things. You’ve got to search the whole world over and become this tourist and searching, searching and seeing all the small villages of the Mediterranean. And you think, look, I think there’s an old Irish tale about the guy who, the Irishman who leaves home, and he searches the world for something amazing and meaningful and he finds nothing. And he arrives home at his doorstep and he sits down on the doorstep to just totally disappointed. And suddenly books down, there’s this little leprechaun and this magical leprechaun is right there. And he says, “Where did you come from?” The guy says to the leprechaun . The leprechaun says, “I’ve been here all the time.”

GTR: Ah, yes. Yes.

ML: And so what’s important that is there is magic in your own life, if only you can see it and love it. And you talk about love before. I think through the eyes of love, we can see much, we can see deep, we can see beauty in small things. We can see... we can still see big things too, but we can see the beauty as well.

GTR: Yeah.

ML: And really beauty is another extraordinary thing. It’s not what is depicted by the commercial interest. Beauty is where is in the eye of the beholder or in the heart of the beholder. I hear I am preaching, Greg.

GTR: No. I think the next book will have to be a book of philosophical quotes. Actually, finally I’m just thinking with... you talk about the simple

things, the small things. Is one of the simple things a dog smiling at you?

ML: Well, it is.GTR: That was a good cartoon.

ML: Yeah. That’s a cartoon. And the pleasure and you smile back. Dogs seem to, some dogs can smile at you. Don’t you reckon?

GTR: I believe so. I remember saying that years ago someone said, “Oh, bull”, I said, “Well, no, you just got to. Maybe they don’t smile at you, but they do to me.”

ML: It’s like a mate of mine who was conscripted to Vietnam in that time. He was at Puckapunyal, doing his basic training and he had on his locker, he had a picture of his English teacher’s dog.

GTR: Right.

ML: Chompy was the name of the dog and it loved Ray. Ray was his name. It loved Ray. And anyway, the guys, Ray was a real character. It was a tall lanky redheaded guy and all his mate there at Puckapunyal, all the other guys conscripted would just taking the piss off him all the time. Of course, he was a funny guy and this dog on his locker and they said it’s ridiculous. And he said yeah. He says, “Yeah but you blokes have got all these pictures of all these girls on your locker.” He says, “You don’t love him, but I love Chompy. I love him.”

GTR: That’s a beautiful thing. Ah, Chompy. We’ll have to do a Chompy book. That’s beautiful. And that’s classic and Ray too. That’s wonderful too. Michael, it’s always a pleasure and your new book. Well, I tell you what, it’s something that continues some of the great legacy that you have and some of the great work you’re still doing for all Australians to reflect on and people in the world, I’d say too.

ML: Thank you Greg, but I’m not too optimistic at the time. I’m in the bad books a bit with social media and I’m a sort of an awful person for reasons I don’t comprehend. So I’m not expecting much publicity or favourable review or anything like that, but so it is. Just move on don’t we? Yeah.

GTR: Yeah. That’s right. I think you’ve summed it up and we can’t please everyone all the time. And if we did, we’d have to be... Yeah, we’d be not even worthy. I don’t think so. Yeah.

ML: Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. Good. And you too, keep up this work, Greg. It’s a good magazine. It’s good. It’s got variety and it’s got depth and it’s sort of... It’s such a breath of fresh air in so many ways. ■

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